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The YDNA J2b L283 at Albanians are around 16% but from 16% 9% belong to J2b L283 Z2507 Z638 Y21045 which PH1751 is part of that 6% to J2b L283 Z2507 Z638 Z1297 and 1% to other branches of J2b L283 include Y1058 and PH1602
Hey there Marko, welcome to the forum!
It is clear from the ancient DNA record that branches of J2b-Z38240, such as J2b-PH1602, were historically most concentrated in the Dalmatian coast and adjacent areas in the (north-)western Balkans, being especially associated with the Cetina culture and later derived Illyrian populations. It is clear from the current data that these Illyrian populations did not play a major role in the genetic formation of the Albanians, rather southern Illyrian peoples that were not as heavy in J2b-Z38240 fulfilled this role. Branches of J2b-L283 best associated with the ancestors of the Albanians include: J2b-PH4679, J2b-Y82533 etc.
I believe that J2b-Y40852 could represent a line that expanded southwards during the Roman period and was eventually Romanised, expanding with Balkan Romance groups that would eventually develop into the Vlachs who would consequently spread it.
Lissus I am not expert on this The J2b L283 Z638 was between Central Albania to Southern Croatia and Southern Bosnia J2b L283 Y1058 was North Illyrian .
The border between North and South Illyria are river Neretva and river Drina not the White Drina in Prizren and Kukes region and Black Drin in Struga region
Hey, thanks for the reply!
That does make a lot of sense. I’ve looked into the ancient samples known for now but unfortunately there are still no ancient J-PH502 to be seen. Only its brother branch which was found among Liburnians.
Southward expansion sounds very reasonable but I can’t imagine the historical context within which it happened, as well as the identity that our common ancestor(s) would have carried and at what time, especially in the contexts of Slavic expansion plus continuous Albanian expansion from Albania itself.
It especially adds onto the mystery that there are Erzya-speaking Russians today who would have split from our common J-Y40852 ancestor some 2500 years ago.
To me this implies an event around 500BC that would have caused some to migrate southwards (from the area of northern Dalmatia?) and others northwards, both subsequently assimilated by Slavs. Or maybe not, if we dare ask the question of how long my ancestors have been Serbs for, or alternatively how long my Hot “cousin’s” ancestors have been Albanians for?
I imagine that there is no answer to these questions for now. Is there any other genetic or historic data that could guide to more specific info regarding our ancestors’ migrations, identities, etc? Would it be possible to get into contact with the man from Lipljan, or somehow get to hear his family’s story perhaps? I don’t know exactly how it works here on Rrenjet, my apologies if some of the questions don’t make sense.
While J2b-PH502>Y40852 branched from its ancestor at some point during the Iron Age (c. 5th century BCE), the MRCA was born during Late Antiquity (c. 3rd century CE). This leads me to believe that this lineage expanded southwards during the Roman imperial period (consolidating somewhere between Herzegovina and Kosova), and that it represents a native Illyrian branch that was consequently Romanised prior to the Slavic migrations.The Erzyas you mentioned form a medieval branch under J2b-PH502>FT195999, with the TMRCA dating to the 11th century CE. Considering how broad the formation-TMRCA gap is (c. 475 BCE-1075 CE) and the fact that the parallel branch is found in the Balkans with a Late Antique TMRCA, I think its most certain that J2b-FT195999 expanded northwards from the Balkans during the Middle Ages and was not a branch associated with the early Slavs.As for the issue of ethno-linguistic identity, the current data doesn’t really allow us to determine for how long your ancestors have been Serbs or for how long the Albanian sample’s ancestors have identified as Albanians; although I imagine it has been for a good number of centuries. I see that the Albanian and Serb from Raška share an MRCA who lived during the 11th century, I think its quite possible that they both descend from Vlachs that lived between SW Serbia and Kosova.That train of thought makes a lot of sense! I do have some other questions. For example, what points you to the region between Herzegovina and Kosovo as the homeland of the lineage? Or, like you said later, southwest Serbia and Kosovo in the middle ages?
I’ve seen that calculators do point to Kosovo as the place of origin for J-PH502, but what is the basis for that? And the other regions you mentioned, of course.
Speaking of this common Vlach origin, and I hope it’s not an issue to stray off topic a little, but what are some other, possibly major? lineages in the modern Albanian ethnos that can be attributed to the Vlachs? Considering that both come from Illyrians, Thracians, and whatever else existed in between, how do you determine what comes from romanised Paleo-Balkan people and what comes from Proto-Albanians?
That train of thought makes a lot of sense! I do have some other questions. For example, what points you to the region between Herzegovina and Kosovo as the homeland of the lineage? Or, like you said later, southwest Serbia and Kosovo in the middle ages?
I’ve seen that calculators do point to Kosovo as the place of origin for J-PH502, but what is the basis for that? And the other regions you mentioned, of course.
Speaking of this common Vlach origin, and I hope it’s not an issue to stray off topic a little, but what are some other, possibly major? lineages in the modern Albanian ethnos that can be attributed to the Vlachs? Considering that both come from Illyrians, Thracians, and whatever else existed in between, how do you determine what comes from romanised Paleo-Balkan people and what comes from Proto-Albanians?
I dont think they can accurately pinpoint to a Vlach origin, it seems like pure speculation in my opinion. What is for sure is your ancestors were part of a paleo-balkan group. Weather they were Romanized Illyrians or part of the Albanian ethnos which later became slavicized is hard to tell. I dont think anyone can truly answer that question. We all wish we could know where exactly our ancestors were 2000 years ago, but finding the answer is very difficult.
In light of some more recent findings, I’d like to come back to this topic and expand a little on some new information. It would seem that J2b-PH1602>PH502>Y40852>Y40288 has some surprisingly widespread presence in southeastern Serbia starting from around the 6th century AD, though it will surely end up having a lower TMRCA once more samples are on YFull.
The parallel branch the Hoti from Lipljan and the Serb from Kraljevo belong to, J-A30137 (formed 1750 ybp, TMRCA 900 ybp), may point to an origin in Montenegro. The Serb is allegedly originally from near Nikšić in Montenegro.
What makes this more interesting is that many of the Serbian families under J-Y40288 seem to have origins in Kosovo – one specifically from Prizren. That wouldn’t mean much to me otherwise if not for one of the Serbs surnames and patron saint matching a quite large Serbo-Macedonian family from the village of Vratnica, near Tetovo. That family from Vratnica says that their own origin is from the Luma region in modern Albania. They haven’t been tested yet, but it’s a tempting possibility to assume that they are also positive for J-Y40852 (or even >Y40288), in which case we should consider the heart of our shared ancestry to be somewhere between Kosovo and northwestern Albania.
The only other man even remotely relevant to this ancient family of ours in the Rrenjet database is
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<td class=”column-3″>Mat</td>
<td class=”column-4″>Dibër</td>
<td class=”column-5″>Shqipëri</td>
<td class=”column-6″>J2b-L283>Z622>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241</td>
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Is it known whether he is negative for any downstream branches or is it simply the nature of a more shallow test that didn’t allow for a more precise branch? It could be an interesting turn of events if he also happened to be under J-Y40852, as he doesn’t seem to be geographically far away from Luma. Is a more exact place of origin known? Or any other details that could be relevant to unraveling this puzzle?
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